tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post3220903249823609365..comments2023-07-31T04:12:15.594-07:00Comments on Random Thoughts: More on Ken Wilberstuartresnickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-79005598670421168032013-09-14T11:17:13.392-07:002013-09-14T11:17:13.392-07:00I am a simple man who at the age of 50 re-entered ...I am a simple man who at the age of 50 re-entered my local community college. I signed up for a psy class of which the focus was on Wilber's philosophy. I enjoy the spiral dynamics and that truth has so much to do with a persons stance. Having read the "A brief history of everything"/ "Integral Life Practice" and listened to multiple YouTube videos to the point of Davidhttp://www.clayirony.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-52697066904735169472008-01-08T11:24:00.000-08:002008-01-08T11:24:00.000-08:00gniz said... This is a bit simplistic, i think, be...gniz said... <BR/><I>This is a bit simplistic, i think, because you are only looking at human evolution. What about all of the species that have gone exinct?</I><BR/><BR/>Zen Master Seung Sahn used to remind us that when we long for world peace, we're only talking about <B>human</B> world peace. Maybe when the animals get together and chat, they long for all those humans (who cause them so much stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-11560504524749968112008-01-08T09:17:00.000-08:002008-01-08T09:17:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.gnizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18043750358888135458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-54369023087184185692008-01-08T09:10:00.000-08:002008-01-08T09:10:00.000-08:00BTW, I do agree that in many ways culture does app...BTW, I do agree that in many ways culture does appear to evolve, and that feels like a positive thing to me on a personal level.<BR/><BR/>That doesnt mean that I decide to try and force MY particular passions or viewpoint into some kind of universal dictum.<BR/><BR/>I like that things seem to progress, politically, spiritually, and so forth. Thats great.<BR/><BR/>But thats just one little gnizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18043750358888135458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-51006011721695323082008-01-08T08:16:00.000-08:002008-01-08T08:16:00.000-08:00As I read this interesting and nicely civil interp...As I read this interesting and nicely civil interplay, I tend to think alongside, not being that interested in going with the whole Wilber program and being reasonably happy with the course I've been on -- which is somewhat eclectic but rooted in a concern to criticize and perhaps help redefine Christian tradition.<BR/><BR/>Two notes:<BR/><BR/>I believe it was Martin Buber who said that things Stephen C. Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07769778698884528600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-20446559392407612632008-01-08T07:44:00.000-08:002008-01-08T07:44:00.000-08:00"It's not accurate to define evolution as equal pa..."It's not accurate to define evolution as equal parts of development and decay because each century so far has seen greater development and integration than the century before."<BR/><BR/>This is a bit simplistic, i think, because you are only looking at human evolution. What about all of the species that have gone exinct? Humans are babies compared to many other species, including some long gnizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18043750358888135458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-88270712940238928882008-01-07T21:10:00.000-08:002008-01-07T21:10:00.000-08:00David: "You make a good point about the starting p...David: "You make a good point about the starting point being the just-now experience, but what sort of understanding do we bring to it?"{<BR/><BR/>Stuart: "No understanding, only questioning. What am I? How can I help this situation?"<BR/><BR/>There is always some level of understanding when someone acts. For example, say a husband is a chronic drinker and drives drunk. One wife thinks it's Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12078996453058712634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-26640737970846101432008-01-07T11:04:00.000-08:002008-01-07T11:04:00.000-08:00Stuart,Broken Yogi at www.brokenyogi.blogspot.com ...Stuart,<BR/><BR/>Broken Yogi at www.brokenyogi.blogspot.com made that argument first, i believe.<BR/><BR/>My apologies for not citing him specifically when i wrote that comment (i was too lazy).gnizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18043750358888135458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-18129204232433122452008-01-07T09:52:00.000-08:002008-01-07T09:52:00.000-08:00gniz said... Also, we could say that as much as th...gniz said... <BR/><I>Also, we could say that as much as the world/universe is evolving towards complexity, it is also becoming defuse and breaking down. Eventually everything dies.</I><BR/><BR/>Somewhere on the <A HREF="http://www.integralworld.net/" REL="nofollow">Integral World</A> site, I recall reading a critic who said that Wilber's work is all about growth & development... but that's only stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-7087481335232577512008-01-07T05:55:00.000-08:002008-01-07T05:55:00.000-08:00Also, we could say that as much as the world/unive...Also, we could say that as much as the world/universe is evolving towards complexity, it is also becoming defuse and breaking down.<BR/><BR/>Eventually everything dies. <BR/><BR/>To make the conclusion that the entire point of this is to "evolve" is sort of like saying the entire point of a human life is to "get to age 40." <BR/><BR/>Perhaps the whole point is to die well...gnizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18043750358888135458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-49570911004777417562008-01-06T16:19:00.000-08:002008-01-06T16:19:00.000-08:00David wrote...You make a good point about the star...David wrote...<BR/><I>You make a good point about the starting point being the just-now experience, but what sort of understanding do we bring to it?</I><BR/><BR/>No understanding, only questioning. What am I? How can I help this situation?<BR/><BR/><I>there are many ways to lessen suffering. One is spiritual teachings like Buddhism, but another is helping systems evolve--economic systems, stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-81961080071255789442008-01-05T23:41:00.000-08:002008-01-05T23:41:00.000-08:00Hi Stuart,"Rather than speaking of two truths, I'd...Hi Stuart,<BR/><BR/>"Rather than speaking of two truths, I'd say we have our experience, and then lots of different ways we can choose to think about it."<BR/><BR/>You sound like Ken Wilber! He says there is the nondual, and then there is the world of perspectives.<BR/><BR/>"What’s the point of overlaying experience with a Relative/Absolute duality?"<BR/><BR/>I think the two truths doctrine helpsDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12078996453058712634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-15855523505406924022008-01-05T15:40:00.000-08:002008-01-05T15:40:00.000-08:00hard at work in the lab said... How is thinking, w...hard at work in the lab said... <BR/><I>How is thinking, which is just like the sensations of the alarm clock, shower, etc., any different from those sensations? Both arise out of conditions, are not self, and pass away, just like sensations.</I><BR/><BR/>The difference is significant from the perspective of suffering and the removal of suffering. Sensations themselves are never suffering. It's stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-36798085784258375812008-01-05T15:39:00.000-08:002008-01-05T15:39:00.000-08:00Since the subject of how we might describe the bas...Since the subject of how we might describe the basic force in everything has been mentioned, I want to mention what Albert Schweitzer said: We are life that wills to live midst life that wills to live. Apart from being a doctor in Africa he also was a philosopher and a recognized Biblical scholar. If eros comes from Wilber as a sort of foundational term, I am prompted both to remember this from Stephen C. Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07769778698884528600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-10121274126517846972008-01-05T15:25:00.000-08:002008-01-05T15:25:00.000-08:00Hi, David, I’m happy you posted here. As a fan of ...Hi, David, I’m happy you posted here. As a fan of Ken Wilber, you offer a different perspective, widening the scope of discussion.<BR/><BR/>David said... <BR/><I> “The Two Truths Doctrine in Buddhism differentiates between two levels of truth in Buddhist discourse, a "relative", or commonsense truth, and an "ultimate" or absolute spiritual truth.</I><BR/><BR/>Using our thinking, we <B>can</B> stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-41390984123587163582008-01-04T13:37:00.000-08:002008-01-04T13:37:00.000-08:00I am critical of Wilber, but for very different re...I am critical of Wilber, but for very different reasons. I don't have a problem with him analyzing and dividing etc. After all, he is writing a critique of scientific process--to criticize something you have to stand apart from it. Sure, critique might create all sorts of boundaries and divisions etc. that do not exist at an absolute level since they are just concepts, but at a relative level, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-67782446981182340532008-01-03T22:42:00.000-08:002008-01-03T22:42:00.000-08:00Hi Stuart,Also, Ken responded to the "What Good is...Hi Stuart,<BR/><BR/>Also, Ken responded to the "What Good is Half a Wing?" critique in a blog post:<BR/><BR/>http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/post/390?page=6<BR/><BR/>Best,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12078996453058712634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-71542919931855767552008-01-03T22:00:00.000-08:002008-01-03T22:00:00.000-08:00Hi Stuart,Thanks for your interesting post. It's a...Hi Stuart,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your interesting post. It's a great subject. As a fan of Ken Wilber, I'm going to take another perspective on this.<BR/><BR/>For one thing, I think we have to get clear on the two truths doctrine of Buddhism. From the Wikipedia article on the subject:<BR/><BR/>“The Two Truths Doctrine in Buddhism differentiates between two levels of truth in Buddhist discourse, a "Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12078996453058712634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-15416596390323273622008-01-02T15:49:00.000-08:002008-01-02T15:49:00.000-08:00Stuart said: We could cultivate all sorts of ideas...Stuart said: <BR/><I>We could cultivate all sorts of ideas about "enlightened" and "unenlightened," but why?</I><BR/><BR/>Martin Gifford said... <BR/><I>Agreed. If people don’t say enlightenment means X (the usual mundane living), I won’t say it means Y (dynamic creative living).</I><BR/><BR/>What's been written by me or commenters that you've interpretted as "enlightenment means (the usual stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-85613485952153147812007-12-31T13:48:00.000-08:002007-12-31T13:48:00.000-08:00Stuart wrote: “I choose to attend to just-now, mor...<I>Stuart wrote: “I choose to attend to just-now, moreso than following the dreams of thinking.”</I><BR/><BR/>I’m glad the Beatles didn’t do that.<BR/><BR/><I>Stuart wrote: “We could cultivate all sorts of ideas about "enlightened" and "unenlightened," but why?” </I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. If people don’t say enlightenment means X (the usual mundane living), I won’t say it means Y (dynamic creative Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-29472269471616595752007-12-30T17:23:00.000-08:002007-12-30T17:23:00.000-08:00Stephen said... messianism itself is one of the ma...Stephen said... <BR/><I>messianism itself is one of the major reasons for the failure of Christianity to accomplish what Jesus appeared to be teaching -- nonviolence, etc.</I><BR/><BR/>Jesus taught about loving, helping and forgiving all people. We can embrace his teaching by acting according to those principles. Whenever we fall short, we can just keep on trying in each new moment.<BR/><BR/>I stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-33039469524717838862007-12-30T07:08:00.000-08:002007-12-30T07:08:00.000-08:00All the stuff Wilber and his buddies produce is dr...All the stuff Wilber and his buddies produce is driven by what Zen terms 'gaining mind.'<BR/><BR/>And that is why it is futile in the end. <BR/><BR/>For whatever reason, KW IMO seems driven, driven driven. He seems driven to gain mastery and that craving is insatiable. <BR/><BR/>So his output will appeal to anyone who, unconsciously, craves to gain a sense of mastery. <BR/><BR/>I tried looking atAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-59468164489764081692007-12-30T00:18:00.000-08:002007-12-30T00:18:00.000-08:00Stuart wrote: "Isn't there a clarity that appears ...Stuart wrote: "Isn't there a clarity that appears only when we put down this relentless drive to preserve the "I"?"<BR/><BR/>But isn't there more to life than that?<BR/><BR/>This is the question that Wilber and Andrew Cohen claim to be interested in.<BR/><BR/>What happens after "enlightenment"?<BR/><BR/>Advaitans just say to go on with your ordinary life. I think they interpret their "realisationAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-27596020342499001862007-12-29T11:10:00.000-08:002007-12-29T11:10:00.000-08:00The name net widens with the addition of Franklin ...The name net widens with the addition of Franklin Jones (aka Adi Da aka aka)... I read him much more deeply than Wilber several decades ago and was highly impressed by a single concept which is similar to the concept we seem to be coalescing around -- ignorance. The liberation of not needing to theorize and so forth. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately it soon became obvious that, Da Free John (as he was Stephen C. Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07769778698884528600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30354654.post-70026776474730159182007-12-29T10:38:00.000-08:002007-12-29T10:38:00.000-08:00Stephen said... I think we're essentially moving t...Stephen said... <BR/><I>I think we're essentially moving toward a notion (for me anyway) of the mind itself being where what we call immanence and trancendence take place.</I><BR/><BR/>There's the experience of just-now, which is beyond words and ideas, but which we each perceive for ourselves. When thinking appears, it creates all the dualities: immanence and trancendence, spiritual and mundane,stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.com